Phish bassist Mike Gordon appeared on WNYC‘s Science Friday to discuss how he’s using neuroscience to understand the transcendent moments of improvisation that occur during the band’s live performances.
Gordon has been funding research into flow state and working with Dr. Greg Appelbaum, a neuroscientist at the University of California, San Diego to study the phenomenon from a scientific angle.
He acknowledged the difficulty of articulating what flow state actually feels like, saying, “It’s inherently hard to talk about. It’s intangible.” Phish doesn’t typically use the term when discussing peak improvisatory moments, he explained, but instead describes the deep musical communication between band members and the audience as “hooking up.”
The bassist emphasized how personal and varied the experience can be for different musicians: “Someone might say, ‘Oh, during that jam I actually cried.’ Or I might say, ‘Oh, during that jam there were about five minutes where I forgot to swallow.’ And for me, that’s a sign that I’m really in it. But it’s different for each person.”
Gordon went on to describe the significance of these moments: “We’re talking about religious experience, transcendence, self-actualization, whatever you want to call it.”
In a particularly revealing segment, Gordon walked through a performance of “Bathtub Gin” to illustrate flow state in action. He made a striking observation about the band’s approach during these moments: “We’re playing notes and patterns, not for the sake of playing notes and patterns. We’re playing notes and patterns for the sake of getting into a dream state and transporting our consciousness in ways that we’ve learned to cultivate over the years.”
He contrasted this with ego-driven performance: “It’s not performing. It’s not trying to be cool. I’m trying to play something cool that my bass teacher I used to have would like. It’s just trying to get into the flow state.”
Dr. Appelbaum outlined their three-pronged research approach: gathering real-time feedback from Gordon via a pedal he can press during performances, input from the audience, and assessment from Mike’s longtime producer Jared Slomoff, who identifies moments of exceptional musical articulation.
The neuroscientist explained what they’re observing physiologically: “What we think is happening during flow is a reduction in the frontal cortex, the part of the brain that’s reduction in frontal activity in the brain, and more activity in the sensory systems.” This phenomenon, called “hypofrontality,” aligns with Gordon’s description of reduced conscious effort.
Appelbaum noted that Gordon has “really robust brain activity” with particularly strong alpha waves, which are associated with the default mode network. These alpha waves increase when someone enters a more relaxed, “zoned out” state, which correlates with the flow experiences Gordon describes.
Gordon’s ultimate goal isn’t just to study flow. He wants to create something called the “Zen Box,” a device that uses biofeedback to help musicians achieve and prolong flow states. “I don’t know that I’m making the device for me. I want to make it to share it for the world,” he explained.
The research team is exploring how to translate brain measurements into real-time musical effects. As Appelbaum described it, “When Mike either enters a flow state or enters a state that we can define in the measurement devices like more alpha activity for example, that can be translated into a sound effect or a lighting effect or some type of musical pedal that he could operate with his brainwaves.”
Gordon reflected on why his experiences of flow state have driven him to fund years of research: “It doesn’t feel cosmic or out in the middle of la la land, it feels just like going for a walk with a friend or doing dishes. It’s like being more myself than I’ve ever been before… People change their whole lives whether they’re playing or going to listen to experience it for years.”
The research has implications beyond music performance, with Appelbaum noting similar brain patterns in surgeons during successful operations, suggesting flow state is a universal human experience across different high-skill activities.
Listen to the full episode below.